Open Carry in Texas?

[Gilgondorin]

How can you be so sure that such an event would NOT occur?

You jumped to a conclusion prematurely. I never said I didn't think it wouldn't -- I said that my teachers insisted that it would happen as a direct result of legalized campus CCW. I even said as much when I said in the very next paragraph that I said trained policemen might've had a difficult time in the same situation as the students attending the seminar.

Personally, I DO think it WILL happen which is why I think campus carry is somewhat unwise. HOWEVER, my school has had one robbery at gunpoint, one rape, too many phone thefts and car thefts to count, and several arson attempts, all within the past year and a half. This makes me also believe that at this point, we should weigh the pros against the cons when dealing with CCW, and pick the lesser evil. Several of us here think that the existing CHL training requirements are already unconstitutional; to me, they seem fairly reasonable, so your results may vary.

I believe at this point it would be wise to make some kind of on-campus crisis response training mandatory for CCW applicants intending to carry on school grounds. The last thing we need is for someone to REALLY start a fight with SWAT officers and get lumped in with the actual bad guys. Apparently the school released a memorandum to the teachers regarding this subject, suggesting that all students regardless of intent, hunker down in classrooms until police arrived to take control of the situation. People caught outside of rooms during lock down, should not approach sweeping teams and instead lay down flat on their bellies without making any sudden movements; the theory behind this is the sweeping teams will move in and shoot anything that moves in a hostile manner, to secure the area for back-up units to arrive and take full measure of the scene. Whether or not this is the SAPD's doctrine toward crisis response I do not know, but it sure sounds like it would have been a good idea to formally tell this to all students instead of one teacher mention it in passing.

[lightskye]

For Dom:  http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012/05/man-arrested-in-family-dollar-slaying/

Officers told KTRK that the bullet fired from a customer’s gun killed the store clerk.

Wish it weren't so.

Personally, I DO think it WILL happen which is why I think campus carry is somewhat unwise. HOWEVER, my school has had one robbery at gunpoint, one rape, too many phone thefts and car thefts to count, and several arson attempts, all within the past year and a half. This makes me also believe that at this point, we should weigh the pros against the cons when dealing with CCW, and pick the lesser evil. Several of us here think that the existing CHL training requirements are already unconstitutional; to me, they seem fairly reasonable, so your results may vary.

I stand corrected.  I also believe the CHL requirements are reasonable (despite being "unconstitutional" as some say).

I believe at this point it would be wise to make some kind of on-campus crisis response training mandatory for CCW applicants intending to carry on school grounds. The last thing we need is for someone to REALLY start a fight with SWAT officers and get lumped in with the actual bad guys. Apparently the school released a memorandum to the teachers regarding this subject, suggesting that all students regardless of intent, hunker down in classrooms until police arrived to take control of the situation. People caught outside of rooms during lock down, should not approach sweeping teams and instead lay down flat on their bellies without making any sudden movements; the theory behind this is the sweeping teams will move in and shoot anything that moves in a hostile manner, to secure the area for back-up units to arrive and take full measure of the scene. Whether or not this is the SAPD's doctrine toward crisis response I do not know, but it sure sounds like it would have been a good idea to formally tell this to all students instead of one teacher mention it in passing.

Your thoughts mirror mine as well.  If campus carry does pass, it would make good sense to require us to undergo additional "campus crisis" or even "common sense" training.  Seems these days that many people (criminals and legitimate gun owners alike) think buying a gun and some ammo is all that's necessary to properly defend one's self.

[Domineaux]

For Dom:  http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012/05/man-arrested-in-family-dollar-slaying/

Officers told KTRK that the bullet fired from a customer’s gun killed the store clerk.

Wish it weren't so.

Damn that sucks. While the clerks death is tragic either way, this good samaritan's life is now ruined because he wasn't as well practiced as we all should be.

[Gilgondorin]

While the clerks death is tragic either way, this good samaritan's life is now ruined because he wasn't as well practiced as we all should be.

....While indeed very tragic, I see it as another point for the "mandatory carry training" argument, in my opinion. >.>

[Domineaux]

While the clerks death is tragic either way, this good samaritan's life is now ruined because he wasn't as well practiced as we all should be.

....While indeed very tragic, I see it as another point for the "mandatory carry training" argument, in my opinion. >.>

We already have that requirement and we all know it is crap. Government rules won't instill the sense of personal responsibility that is required for people to seek enough proficiency to avoid such rare bystander hits. Keep in mind that police have much more training than a lot of concealed carriers but much worse bystander hit rates.

[Gilgondorin]

We already have that requirement and we all know it is crap. Government rules won't instill the sense of personal responsibility that is required for people to seek enough proficiency to avoid such rare bystander hits. Keep in mind that police have much more training than a lot of concealed carriers but much worse bystander hit rates.

Statistically speaking, you are correct. However, your point is moot because police get into armed confrontations with criminals far more frequently than law-abiding citizens do. If untrained citizens were to get into armed conflicts with criminals as frequently as police do (more so in some areas than others), the level of misses and accidental deaths of bystanders, suspects, AND civil responders would climb so high it would make Colombian drug cartels sweat.

[40khammer]

A large number of police officers don't engage in any form of firearms training other than the mandatory once a year qualification.  Due to budget constraints many agencies wont pay for continuing education courses such as active shooter training and whatnot.  Its left up to the officer to pursue and pay for the training themselves. As such many officers just don't do it. 

Also keep in mind that the police are a reactive force not a proactive force.  In most cases the police wont even be near until a crime is reported. 

Fact is most Chl holders see shooting training as a fun hobby, while many, though not necessarily most, police officers regard it as work.

[texanron]

Man this thread has gotten off track.

[Jeb_66]

There is NO debate that ANY form of training to have a gun for personal defense is unconstitutional from the way I see it.  Is it a good idea? Yes. Does it say in the constitution "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed as long as you pass a test someone else devises that deems you qualified."?  No. It does not. That simple.

Now, if I was in a class room, armed, and a shooting happened I wouldn't go looking for it. That's a COPS job. Someone was pointing out CHL holders blurring the line between their job and a COPS job. As a CHL holder the gun on you is for DEFENSE. If you go looking door to door for the BG you're on the OFFENSE. So if I was hunkered down in class waiting for cops to clear the area (as should be the response regardless if Campus Carry is passed) and someone OTHER than a cop kicked the door to my class room with a gun I'd most likely shoot them. If that was another kid looking for the bad guy it would be a sad ordeal, but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot if it wasn't a cop. So sure I can see there needing to be some form of training. But that should be on the campus and done at orientation. Not on the CHL holder. 

[Gilgondorin]

It's hard to argue the point that colleges would willingly accept the burden of "training" CCW holders at orientation when half of them are already too hard-headed to allow it even when it becomes state law. Domineaux just said like 4 posts ago that government rules can't instill any sense of personal responsibility in a person, or an organization (especially if 4/5th of the administration is publicly outspoken against something), and the same applies here.

[Jeb_66]

I meant that in freshman orientation they should go over what to do in the even of a shooting or crisis or whatever.  Not line kids up and teach them to shoot.    

They should be doing that ANYWAY. 

[SpecOpsDocRet]

I meant that in freshman orientation they should go over what to do in the even of a shooting or crisis or whatever.  Not line kids up and teach them to shoot.    

They should be doing that ANYWAY.

Thank you Jeb

[yang_jackson]

Correct, 12 states requiring no license/permit/etc for open carry, and 4 of those are "constitutional carry" states which do not require a permit/license for concealed or open carry.

Which states?

[Domineaux]

Correct, 12 states requiring no license/permit/etc for open carry, and 4 of those are "constitutional carry" states which do not require a permit/license for concealed or open carry.

Which states?

Actually more than 12 allow unlicensed open carry, but some have local jurisdictions that prohibit it.
The following map shows it best and you can click on each state for their specifics:

http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html

(12 yellow and 15 orange states)

[Jeb_66]

In these states that allow unlicensed open carry, can you still carry concealed without a license?  It seems like a stupid question but I still wanted to ask it. Lol.

[Domineaux]

Only 4 states allow concealed carry without a permit. Those are the "constitutional carry" states of Alaska, Vermont, Arizona and Wyoming.
There are many states with pending legislation towards it though so hopefully we will see more soon.
Wyoming just enacted it in 2011, Arizona in 2010, Alaska in 2003 and Vermont is the only US State which never restricted the rights of the people to carry open or concealed.

[yang_jackson]

Correct, 12 states requiring no license/permit/etc for open carry, and 4 of those are "constitutional carry" states which do not require a permit/license for concealed or open carry.

Which states?

Actually more than 12 allow unlicensed open carry, but some have local jurisdictions that prohibit it.
The following map shows it best and you can click on each state for their specifics:

http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html

(12 yellow and 15 orange states)

thanks for the info! looks like im moving to vermont!

[Domineaux]

Yeah Vermont has it pretty nice...bit cold though in winter.

[Jeb_66]

Lol

[tenring]

It'd be nice to have, but I heard something about it meaning you no longer have to qualify for a license to carry open. While that sounds like a victory, I kinda don't like the fact that a bunch of gun-happy Call of Duty yahoos will be allowed to randomly strap a pistol "that looks like the one I'm beast with in the game" on their hip and wander around un-trained in how to properly shoot with it (let alone use it in a life/death situation with many innocent people around, and the eyes of the world upon them).

Spent some time in several of the states that allow open carry for everyone, and I assure you, that's not the case in any of them.

Parents here, will all nod their head, when I say that kids basically have no interest in something that's okay with their parents, but you make it a taboo, and it's guaranteed they will abuse it. This is how it works with open carry. I lived for several years in such a place, 99.99% of people will still not carry in those places. Go figure, I always did when I could, and really, nobody ever looked twice at me with a gun on my hip.